Group determined to stop Sunday alcohol referendum
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Sunday Alcohol Sales in Florence
Sunday Alcohol Sales in Florence
An image of the group’s Web site, votenoflorence.com.
Published: September 8, 2008
Updated: September 9, 2008
FLORENCE — A Florence pastor told Florence City Council that the group Strengthening Florence Families will do “everything in our power” to defeat a referendum that could allow Sunday alcohol sales at restaurants in the city.
Jim Crooks, pastor of Southside Baptist Church, said Monday that the group feels like a special interest is being allowed “to steamroll legislation around the public” in Florence.
He also said he doubts the city studied whether allowing Sunday alcohol sales would incur additional expenses for emergency responders.
The group recently launched the Web site http://votenoflorence.com in opposition of the referendum.
Hospitality Association of South Carolina President Tom Sponseller said the Web site’s references to a 2006 study in the American Journal of Public Health are like comparing apples to oranges.
Sponseller said New Mexico had lifted its ban on packaged alcohol sales, which aren’t up for a vote in Florence.
The researchers, who evaluated data from the 1990s, stated that they found a 29 percent increase in alcohol-related crashes and a 42 percent increase in deaths from Sunday alcohol-related crashes.
Sponseller also said New Mexico has a higher rate of alcoholism and that people with alcoholism are more likely to buy from a package store than a restaurant.
Areas such as Santee and Greenville allow Sunday alcohol sales, Sponseller said.
“No city or county (in South Carolina) has ever talked about the higher cost of EMT, law enforcement — it’s never been an issue,” he said.
Sponseller told council in July that allowing restaurants to sell alcohol on Sundays would increase sales by $650,000 a month.
Crooks also said he thought council didn’t give the public enough notice about the meetings where the referendum was considered. Although council advertised the meetings and articles appeared in the Morning News, Crooks said he’d like to have had 30 to 60 days to do the same amount of “homework” as the hospitality association.
Council on Aug. 14 passed its final reading of the ordinance to hold the referendum. That was one day before the city’s deadline to submit the referendum to county elections officials for placement on November’s ballot.
Councilman Rick Woodard asked city manager David Williams to try to validate the potential costs and revenues of Sunday alcohol sales.
In other business Monday, council voted unanimously to allocate nearly $300,000 to the Florence Downtown Development Corp. for the purchase of the former Kimbrell’s Furniture building at 135 S. Dargan St.
The Florence Museum of Art, Science and History had an interest in moving to the building, but has the matter under review.
They also gave unanimous approval to second and final reading of an ordinance to transfer two city-owned buildings to the corporation, a city-established nonprofit that plans to market the properties. The corporation has asked for the building at 117 and 119 S. Dargan St. as well as the former Carolina Theater, at 129 S. Dargan St.
Council members also asked the corporation to conduct a feasibility study for a teen center.
Council also voted unanimously to:
- Borrow an additional $400,000, for a total of $1,025,000 from the S.C. Brownfields Cleanup Revolving Loan Fund, to pay for the cleanup of the former Bush Recycling Center site off North Irby Street.
- Schedule a public hearing next month regarding a request for $74,600 in unused Community Development Block Grant funds to replace the roof at the Florence Boys & Girls Club.
- Abandon an unopened right of way on the northern end of North Guerry Street.
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Thank you Progress843. Excellent essay. This will also be my last post on this subject.
Before I bow out, however, I suggest that the citizens of Florence take a ride through the old downtown area and tell us that this is their idea of progress. Like it or not, we compete for investment dollars and tax revenues. One only has to take a ride through Greenville to see how a revitalized downtown can look and feel. High quality establishments on a tree lined street where families can stroll and windwow shop.
Blue laws, like the Sunday ban on alcohol, only make us less competitve and less appealing to investors.
Voting yes to lift the ban will bring us one step closer to making Florence a more attractive, progressive and competitive community.
The belief that the ills of society based from alcohol consumption is short sighted.
Our public school system is underfunded and cutting programs daily. The high cost of continued education is out of reach for many. We have a lack of youth programs. The lack of available employment coupled with the rising cost of living has diminished the middle class resulting in a clear division between the have and have not in our community. Self-absorbed parents who over indulge their children are raising a generation of children with a sense of entitlement and a lack luster work ethic. A society programmed to accept fear mongering from the media, politicians and at times our churches and intolerance all play a part in the degradation of our community and family.
A person who is predisposed to addiction or currently addicted to anything will find a way to feed their need. They provide for their addiction Monday through Saturday.
The greater segments of our community are responsible, spiritual, moral people. To fear that Sunday alcohol sales will spiral these same people into abuse of themselves and danger to others is a hysterical response. I personally have more faith in my fellow man.
Our community has a fragile infrastructure that does not provide enough entertainment, arts, housing and dining to make this community appealing to franchise retail, manufacturing, technical companies to relocate to this area. Franchise restaurants rely on the additional revenue generated from alcohol sales to justify their locations, to allow alcohol sales on Sunday is just one more incentive needed for economic development of Florence County over surrounding areas. Economic development of our area results in increased employment opportunities, increased revenue from sales taxes, and business licensing as well as a jolt for our existing construction companies, building suppliers, food and beverage purveyors. Large companies that relocate to this area often bring their existing employees resulting in increased home purchases, property taxes collected revenue from newly registered and taxed vehicles etc. The benefit of additional revenue only serves to better the community as a whole.
HBC your restaurant seating near alcohol consumers is normal (since majority consume) your “on the most part” experience with rebel rousers, braggarts and drunks is questionable. As this is the majority of your dining experiences, I must question where you choose to dine. I suggest you stay away from Sports grills on game day!
My experience is that of responsible consumers who enjoy a cocktail(s) to enhance the flavor of their food. They prefer a “dining experience” and take great note to select the right wine or cocktail to complete our dining experience.
There are many things in life that I do necessarily like or approve of. Those things I do not incorporate into my personal life, but I certainly respect everyone’s right to choose and make their own decisions. Tolerance is a key to co-existence.
To Enlightened and Lisa:
This will be my last post, as I do not intend on spending any more time on trying to get two people to explain their point of view concisely with researched proof, facts and figures. Instead, they would rather just attack those “religious” people who don’t want this referendum to pass. So, for your answer you wanted.
I am opposed to drinking 7 days a week; however, Monday through Saturday alcohol sales are not on this referendum, so I feel no need to expound on alcohol sales for those days. I come from a family with alcoholism in it and have seen the devastation alcohol can have on families and the lasting effects it has. I have no control over what people do, and I would not want control to choose for others. My husband and I CHOOSE to raise our children in a Godly home and to raise our children to know that WE don’t believe you need to drink alcoholic beverages to have a good time and that alcohol WILL NOT solve any problem you have, your problems will still be there when you sober up. It is our desire that our children not drink alcohol; however, we are wise enough to know that we have no control over our children’s choices after they leave our home. We do, however, enjoy going out for Sunday dinner after church on Sundays, as this is usually our “treat” for making it through another week. We also enjoy it because it is the one day of the week we can go out to eat and not be surrounded by people drinking alcoholic beverages.
It is pretty obvious from your statements that you don’t attend church, at least not one where the Bible is taught from, and that is your prerogative; but, I don’t come into the restaurants and sports bars Monday through Saturday preaching to you and forcing my beliefs on you, so why can’t you leave alcohol alone (in the restaurants) for just one day a week for us “religious fanatics”. Is that really too much to ask? Why do you hate us so much? Why can’t you just be articulate enough to give your opinion without attacking someone else’s opinion? Isn’t that what a forum is for, to state your opinion in an articulate and respectful manner?
We have not been hateful to you, we have not attacked you and damned you to hell for your beliefs. On the contrary, if you don’t know the Lord, I pray that you will come to find God and have a relationship with Him. If you seek Him, He will answer. The road to salvation is easy to find:
Romans 3:23 “For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.“
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.“
Romans 10:9-10 “9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord”, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.“
God bless you all!! See you at the polls in November!!
To Enlightened & others referenced thereof:
Please read the depth of my posts. I have more than answered your question with regard to my position on Alcohol, but in keeping with the focus of this thread, I have reserved my answers as much to that focus as possible. I will gladly answer your other questions even up to email exchanges. In fact, I would welcome a hearty exchange of understanding so that we can present our ‘hopes and concerns’ for our community.
I am honestly sharing my heart and facts that I can easily back up.
Here are a few clarifications you asked for with regard to the Bible:
• Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker and beer(strong drink:jkv) a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise.
• Proverbs 21:17
He who loves pleasure will become poor; whoever loves wine and oil will never be rich.
• Proverbs 23 :31.
• Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly!
• 32.
• In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper.
• 33.
• Your eyes will see strange sights and your mind imagine confusing things.
• 34.
• You will be like one sleeping on the high seas, lying on top of the rigging.
• 35.
• “They hit me,“ you will say, “but I’m not hurt! They beat me, but I don’t feel it! When will I wake up so I can find another drink?“
I hope this adds answers to your questions as well. Clearly the Bible teaches the ‘dangers’ of these on society.
These are relevant present dangers that we can clearly show with public statistics and from first hand accounts of hurts, damages, continuing aggravations from clubs next to or on the road with home/communities. These are facts that I have included in links from reputable sites in other portions of this thread.
Complaints range from public noise keeping people up, to public fights, public urination/exposure/ sexual situations in public and on we go. Just look at all the beer containers on the side of the road since they don’t want to get caught with the container in the vehicle. And before you scoff at litter being a global issue, I agree, but take a close look at the amount of beer/wine/liquor containers there.
Yes, I pointedly understand your question about other days too but that is not the focus of this thread, however it is answered in the above wisdom of the Bible as it encompasses both this and the expansion of sales of alcohol.
Now, I know you will want to make the argument other wise, but I hope we can get all these VERY angry people together that have been affected by alcohol and everyone will see. It’s not about just restaurants and having a ‘social’ drink in Florence as is being presented by those who want these expanded sales, the picture and intended step/next steps go much further and concerned county/city citizens know this. The advent of the internet is making this so much easier to convey over a much larger audience.
Also, the magnifying glass in on the council and other public officials as to all that has happened to bring this to the point it’s at now. Now do you think there are more people that drink in restaurants or more that take their faith and public responsibility to heart and actions? Now my job is to get the word out and from my participation in this thread it will be and is indicative of my determination to spread the word that we don’t want this in our communities/county.
I continue to see comments that simply are attacks toward the church and lack any depth other than wanting to speak harsh opinions about the churches in general.
Obviously you don’t know what ‘true church experience’ is nor what a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and love for one another as Christians is. I know, I can see your negative reactions…but I hope for your sakes not. My Bible says that those who are not born again cannot understand the Spiritual portions of the Bible even though they can memorize or know the history contained in the Bible. There is a real difference here and I hope others come to know for themselves by a personal experience with salvation what I am conveying here.
Now, it’s obvious that critics of the minister and church have neither, but they look forward to simplistic skewed views of Christianity. Also they seek to minimize and down play the obvious additional un-necessary and certain increases in various negative community experiences. Now that translates into people, note it’s about people-real people with real lives that want a full long life, getting hurt or worse. Ignoring the math will not make it go away.
Now seriously, do this:
Go ahead and ask a high school math teacher this simple question. Will adding more purchase time to alcohol sales raise the probability of negative social instances of fights, wrecks, accidents, family and social issues, you know, all the negative social things are being tracked now. How much more alcohol will flood out into the social structure in Florence. Now don’t tell me it won’t be much or the advocates of Alcohol sales on Sunday will just contradict their own argument, since the sales of Alcohol will bring in their minds so much more dollars into our hurting Florence economy, that according to those who want Sunday sales, out of their own mouths in this very post thread.
Hey I know, if this passes, heaven forbid, we will watch the figures and say I told you so and push for another public vote. As for the lives that were hurt or destroyed, oh well. I am certainly not wanting the above to play out in reality, but it could or we can simply stop a real bad proposal before it causes destruction.
Honestly not fear mongering but fact and level headed exchange of information, not the bull dog personal attacks that I see in this thread. Let’s stick to facts that can be substantiated, not simply emotional or financially driven opinion with no grounds and history to support them.
Now, do you think this is Pastor Crooks all by himself? Surely you know better and we are not a bunch of hillbillies either, but highly educated men and women as organizers along with a wide variety of supporters from all walks of life and back grounds that have a determined mindset that we will not let the societal actions around us just go flying around like a balloon with the air rushing out of it to flop down where it will.
Now just so you know, I am not a fan of sitting next to those people in a restaurant who are drinking alcoholic beverages because for the most part they never know when enough is enough. They don’t drink red wine for their health but look for the ‘buzz’ effect and don’t tell me it’s not so because that’s mostly what they talk about. You know, like this “hey bro, this stuff has a real kick, woo hoo” while getting louder after each drink. Never mind meeting one of them in the rest room leaning against the stall feeling sick or worse being sick all over the place and yes it happens.
But those social negative experiences aside as they currently exist in some of our community restaurants, we have many really nice places to eat and hey, what if we decide to not eat at those places that serve alcohol on Sundays. Hmmm that could get interesting since all the restaurants look for that inrush as local churches let out. Hmmm now that could really be a negative on the accountants books.
Don’t think we will go away or give up. We are determined and steadied for the long term and will be very active. We care for Florence and Florence county people that much.
To Tarzanjane90 and HBSCINC, please answer the question that I and others have posed. If your opposition to the measure is all about safety, why are you only concerned about Sundays? Don’t the other 6 days count?
And if you can admit that your opposition is really based on religious convictions, please tell me where in the bible it says that one should not drink on Sundays. Based on my studies, there is no prohibition against alcohol, only prohibitions against over imbibing or making wine on the Sabbath.
The basis of argument is that Sunday Alcohol Sales will jeopardize the communities’ safety and put undue stress on our emergency services.
With that rationale, it makes sense to ban all alcohol sales, everyday. Wow look at the money our taxpayers could save. We can then go and attend our “non-profit” tax-free churches and add our savings to the collection plate.
If you don’t want to buy alcohol on Sunday, then don’t!
I have not seen Pastor Crooks trying to “control” anyone in this town. He has an opinion and has a right to express it just like anyone else.
I don’t have a problem with waiting until 1:30 to do shopping, because by the time I get home from church and eating dinner, it is usually 1:30 or after. This does give those who have to work in retail the ability to attend church if that is their desire. So, no big deal. I try to do my shopping on Saturday so I don’t have to go to a store on Sundays. Just like, if you want to drink on Sunday, buy it on Saturday.
Christianity is not a “religion” it is a relationship with Jesus. We worship God in our “chapels” and in no way force one person to come in and worship. Those who do so, choose to. Again, no “controlling” going on there just free will to worship or not.
My pastor preaches on the Word of God, and I base my choices on the Word of God not on the word of men (pastor or not).
Pastor Crooks does not play “mind-control” games and he only handles snakes the 2nd Sunday of each month, come see it ;o)
One last note, Pastor Crooks is not the only person in Florence who is against this referendum, just the only one the media has given over to you to crucify. Just remember, regardless of your opinion, he is a man with a family; a wife, children and you can be respectful of him while, at the same time, not agreeing with his stance on this subject.
Instead of attacking Pastor Crooks, why don’t you give YOUR researched facts and figures for why you think this referendum should pass. This would make much better use of your time.
Honestly, can it be spun by the spin masters on this thread that I bet have an interest in a bar, that the Minister is seeking to ‘fear’ people into the ‘sheep’ line. For Goodness sake, he is very aware I’m sure that people have more depth than that! Now, to call ‘speaking the facts’ using fear to influence people, well then I guess that Mayor Nagan was fear mongering to order the evacuation of New Orleans as well if you use that argument. Was he living in the stone age too? I can’t help but laugh over that line of thought. Not even close.
We as informed people want to be involved in what’s going on in Florence and Florence county. Don’t forget that those who drink, and we all know they won’t stop at 1 (one) beer while ‘eating at the sports bar for 5 hours’ while watching the game, will leave to go home or somewhere. Will they pass you on the road or meet you head on is the issue.
Well ladies and gentlemen, someone will pass them on the highway and that’s a fact. Also, look at the weight to amount of alcohol taken in over time scale and you will quickly see that most people are affected by only one beer, much less a six pack or two. Adding more opportunity to sell will obviously also increase the instance of alcohol related issues and I’m not just talking about a dui. How many employers will have more absences on Monday morning on the jobs? How many more families will suffer because mom/dad/or both have that much more opportunity to spend the family’s income on alcohol? Make no mistake, it’s about money and it’s not a tax income boon for Florence either.
Now how about a web site that give good info> here is one for you:
How Does Your State Measure Up? http://www.jointogether.org/keyissues/laws/south-carolina.html
South Carolina
Alcohol-Related Stats
Total young drivers involved in fatal crashes
167
Rate of fatal crashes per 100,000 licensed drivers
74.03
Cost per youth in the state*
2036
State rank of cost per youth*
32
Total funds available to combat underage drinking
28 million
Total underage drinking sales
186 million
Total alcohol industry profits from underage drinking
91 million
Total underage drinking costs
837 million
State rating on DUI/DWI
fair
Laws
Graduated drivers licensing
Yes
Type of graduated license
Less restrictive
Happy hour law
Yes
Keg registration law
No
Ban on sunday sales
Yes
Social host law
Yes
Here is another wonderful site full of info: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/research/AlcoholHighway/executive_summary.htm
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/AA66/AA66.htm
Now there are some real facts, not just some malicious opinion and slander of a man, his commitment to people and the good people of Florence and Florence County.
Good people of Florence and Florence county, see this bill of goods for what it is. A simple increase of damage to property and life.
Simple, Let’s keep our community as safe as possible by restraining the sale of and public consumption of Alcohol on Sunday.
It is absolutely insane that Mr. Crooks is trying to scare the public with this “Safety Issue” talk!
For too long, the good citizens of Florence have been somewhat controlled by the “wonderful” pastors in Florence.
We live in a town where people think it’s “normal” to have to wait until 1:30 on Sundays to go shopping for retail items. It is not normal! It’s ridiculous!
Keep your religion within your chapel and do not use it in a way to control the good people of Florence!
Think for yourself people AND quit counting on your pastor to think for you!
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